On my way home from work today, I decided to call my sister to finalize Christmas plans. Every year it gets more difficult to go home--either because of time constraints, work, money, etc.
After a while, our conversation moved from Christmas to homosexuality. I told her basically what I have been telling you guys for the past couple of weeks: Is homosexuality from God? Can men receive revelations from God about finding husbands? Etc.
My sister said, "Andy, what if those guys who told you that were lying to you? Or, what if they were making it up?"
"I don't think that they would make it up. But, what if they're right? I mean, God has told even some of his prophets to do things that are contrary to His plan--for the greater good. Like Nephi killing Laban."
She stopped and said, "Andy, what you're trying to do is justify your actions and your thoughts. You're trying to justify and change God's doctrine for yourself. But you know what? God's doctrine is never going to change."
I paused for about 30 seconds. I had to process what she said.
I said, "Well, you're right. I am justifying myself. Every single day, I have to decide if I want to stay a part of the Church or to leave the Church. Every day, I am trying to find my own sort of happiness, but...God keeps telling me that I can't find happiness on this Earth. I feel as if I am damned--for I am. God has given me a trial that essentially damns me. I can't get a wife, and I can't have children--things that are innate to His Plan of Salvation. So, either I'm damned by living in the Church or damned if I life out of it."
She said, "I know...you've told me this before."
I then added, "I can know see why so many guys commit suicide--they feel as if it is their only option."
I was late for class and now I am writing this.
Am I justifying myself right to Hell? Am I damned if I find a wife? Am I damned if I don't? What about all the single women in the Church--are they damned as well?
Ouch....
ReplyDeleteThat realization is a painful one to come to. I just can't accept the fact that God intends anyone to be damned from day one.
We're all damned in one way or another. I've learned to just take it on the chin and move on.
ReplyDeleteHey Andy,
ReplyDeleteI think it’s easier for members of the church to believe that the gay people who have received revelation to find husbands, or that being gay is ok for them, etc., are being deceived. Strangely, at the same time, they expect people to believe a church based on the testimony of others, as well as a spiritual confirmation for the Lord. The testimonies that exist within the gay community from members (or ex-members) of the church who feel the Lord has directed them personally and explicitly are overwhelming and cannot be denied. There, frankly, seems to me no possible way that 99% of the LDS gay population, the ones who wanted to change and wanted to remain faithful to the church, and were in constant communication with the Lord and his spirit while fighting these challenges (I know you know what I’m talking about here) would simply be deceived, or one day wake up and decide that they were comfortable lying about the revelation they feel God gave to them personally.
So to dismiss their testimonies (and I think Scott and Sarah have some of my favorites; where they even go on to say that they endorse gay marriage because the same spirit that told them the church was true told them to support gay marriage) is ludicrous. To claim that somehow, all of these people are incapable of having communication with the Lord (many BEFORE they did anything “wrong”), is awful. And frankly, if the Lord is willing to let so many be deceived by what they believe to be his spirit, is contrary to his gospel. Isn’t he supposed to be there for us when we reach out to him? How is a moment as sacred as this to each person individually any less sacred than a prayer or experience offered in the temple? I know I felt closer to God in prayer than I ever did in the temple.
But that said, if God hasn’t told you what he wants you to do personally, you probably better not go off the testimony of others here ;). Might I suggest you just remain open to any possibility, and take it to the Lord Himself? Ask him not what every other gay boy in the world should do – but what YOU should do.
How can you be justifying yourself to Hell if the Lord Himself tells you what to do?
I need no justification. I know exactly what I plan on saying to the Lord on judgment day. Is it explainable? Nope. I wish I could tell you the hows and whys, and I certainly have some theories.
But I’ve been told I will be ok. I’ve been told I’m on the path I need to be on right now – and if I’m wrong and homosexuality is wrong and my relationship is wrong, then I expect the Lord to keep good on his promises to me as I have followed him as closely as I have been able to understand, and the atonement - I have no doubt - will make up for any shortcoming.
Nephi killing Laban was a rare exception. There are only a handfull of instances like this in the scriptures. In Nephi's case, an entire people were at risk of losing the knowledge contained in the scriptures. Could God have killed Laban himself instead of asking Nephi to do so? Certainly. The scriptures are chock full of instances where God wiped out individuals, cities, and more in a single stroke. So in this instance God was testing Nephi, just as he was testing Abraham when he told him to offer up Issac. The main point in all these instances is that they were singular events. God did not tell Nephi it was OK to kill anyone he wanted. It was for that one time only. He has never given someone blanket permission to, lets say, live in adultry; or steal whenever convenient; or kill randomly; or lie openly. This example is over-used to rationalize a departure from the commandments.
ReplyDeleteNo matter who wants to "testify" that God has revealed a special exception to the commandments, I personally cannot subscribe to it. This would make God double-minded. For me to be held to the commandments and you NOT to be is folly. God does not work that way. God is "no repsector of persons".
I once had a sister in my Ward that recieved a "revelation" that her husband was going to die and that I would marry her. She is a devout woman, and was convinced the Spirit was guiding her, but obviously this was a delusion. She had no idea I was gay. Also, her husband didn't die.
The Church has made it clear what the doctrine is concerning gay marriage. It is not recognized by God. It has also made it clear that sex outside of marriage - by gay or straight people - is a sin and a violation of the commandments. If you're gay the requirement of marriage is put on hold til after this life, so there's nothing to sweat there.
The rest of it all comes down to who we put first - God, or ourselves? Do we love God enough to sacrifice all we have for Him? Is he asking us to do someting greater than he has asked countless saints and martyrs to do who gave up their very lives for His sake? That's what I have to ask myself when I start thinking I'm in an unfair rut. Puts it in perspective for me.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteWe talked about this on Tuesday night. I've thought about it some more, and here are my thoughts-a little more organized:
You have to be COMPLETELY and TOTALLY honest with yourself. You have to come to grips with EVERYTHING about yourself-things that you like and admire, and things that you don't, and you need to SINCERELY ask God in prayer what you should do.
You are essentially sitting on the fence (I'm using a fence metaphor, I don't like all this talk of suicide and cliffs). I know many people who "received inspiration" to do certain things and make certain decisions in their lives. However, when they've reflected on it later, they realize that it was their own desires, bias', and prejudices that blocked God's will for them. I'm not saying that anyone who you have talked about on this blog falls into this category, I'm merely saying that it is a trap that MANY people fall into. (More particularly, a guy I knew who "received inspiration" to get married, and ended up divorcing the girl 10 MONTHS later).
You need to go to your FATHER in prayer. You need to study out an answer. It won't happen in a day. It won't happen in a week, and it might not even happen in a month or a year (I know it took me 5 years to get the answer to one of my biggest questions). But I know that if you truly humble yourself before Him, and if you ask with a true desire to DO WHAT HE WOULD HAVE YOU DO, you cannot go astray.
If you receive an answer to find a husband and adopt, then go and do as the Lord commands. If you receive an answer to be single your whole life (with promised blessings to come, I'm sure) then go and do as the Lord commands. If you receive the answer to get married to a woman, then go and do as the Lord commands.
Andy, you have been given a great choice to make. It won't be easy, and goodness knows that I will never know how truly hard it is for you. (I can sympathize, but I can't empathize) But I know you can do it. Shut out the world and immerse yourself in Him. He will tell you what path you should take, and once he does, follow that path with every fiber of your being.
I know that you know this GOSPEL is true. I know that you will follow what you are told to do by God.
I'm just a couple of blocks away if you want to talk :) Sending my love <3
Briana has a good point. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks you should do. If things are square between you and the Lord, that's what counts. As for me, I feel very much the same way Gay Saint does. I feel very at peace with the decisions I've made and have felt affirmation from the Lord regarding them. Still believing in the truthfulness of the LDS Church, I do not understand why this is, but I do not feel deceived in any way and am happier than I ever was when doing what was supposedly the "right" thing to do.
ReplyDeleteThe Lord's ways are not man's ways, and I frankly have never believed in black and white concepts. I know that many people will disagree with that and say that what the prophets and apostles teach us is absolute and unchanging, but I'm not so sure that is true. Regardless of whether it is or not, I know what the Lord has told me personally, and that is all that matters to me. And you need to do whatever you feel the Lord tells you to do and trust in that, whatever it might be. What is right for one may not be right for another. Good luck to you in whatever life brings you.
To *not* seek out a relationship (hetero- or homo- as the case is) is damning. By definition, damnation is a stopping of progression. All the Church service in the world doesn't replace the growth that comes from loving someone, helping them grow and building a life together. If it could be replaced, you could just go on an eighty year mission and not be released until death.
ReplyDeleteSo in effect the Church is asking you to pause your life and not gain experience like everyone else.
Then there's what the God says in Doctrine and Covenants: D&C 49:15 "And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man."
Go further and read the preface to the section. This verse is refuting celibacy.
Alma 13:20
ReplyDeleteNow I need not rehearse the matter; what I have said may suffice. Behold, the scriptures are before you; if ye will wrest them it shall be to your own destruction.
Please show me where it says I have to have a sexual relationship or I will be damned? There are many types of relationships I can have that let me love, share, grow and build. Many people who are not gay never marry - are they damned? Broken? Useless? Are they sub-human because they didn't have a "relationship"?
And aside from the scriptures, which clearly don't support your reasoning, please show me a SINGLE statement by a modern prophet that says gay sex or gay marriage is OK. Please show me. These are the men who are called in OUR day to deliver the word of the Lord. We're accountable to follow their counsel, more than any dead prohet of old. Have ANY of them condoned premarital sex? Gay sex? Gay marriage? Gay relationships? Show me a single statement. I'm waiting...
Ugh. I get so tired of people saying "God's doctrine is never going to change." The thing is, it does change. Or, if not change, he adds on to it and gives as more pieces of it as we are ready for it. Do we practice animal sacrifice like in Old Testament times? Nope, that changed. Do we keep worthy men from having the priesthood because of the color of their skin? Nope...changed. Do you know any church members with more than one wife? Guess God changed his mind on that one too. Book of Mormon? Pretty new and different in the scheme of things. The way I see it, God is omnipotent and therefore can do whatever the heck he wants. But he is a loving God, of course, and is not going to abuse his power or change things on a whim. It's pretty arrogant for someone to say that God is never going to change...as if we can limit God's power and tell him what he can and can't do. They should use their time more effectively...go try to repeal the law of gravity or something.
ReplyDeleteHas the Law of Chastity changed? The Law of Tithing? The Ten Commandments? The Golden Rule? Why do you assume this issue is going to change? And until it does, are we not supposed to honor and obey God's law?
ReplyDeleteGod can do whatever He wants, but as of right now he has not changed his mind on this issue. People can twist themselves into pretzels trying to find a way around it, but its really clear what the Brethren are saying about this. Its up to each of us to accept or reject that message. That's all I'm saying.
@Neal:
ReplyDeleteThe ONLY basis for any Christian condemnation of homosexuality is half a dozen verses in the Bible. And the popular interpretation of those Bible verses is highly questionable at best, if you will take the time to actually research the scholarship that's been done on them. No LDS prophet's words on the subject have ever been canonized. That may not matter to you, but it is settled "law" in the LDS Church that the only doctrine binding on us as a people is what is stated in the Standard Works. Many LDS presidents have said so.
Result? No solid, unquestionable basis to say even that God has clearly _stated_ His mind on this issue, let alone that He has "not changed his mind." "The Brethren" have in the past announced "revelations" about investing in the sugar business, about starting a bank that failed miserably and other questionable business deals, and stated as "the will of the Lord" many things that the Church today repudiates. You may not like hearing this, but it's the truth.
Things are not nearly as clear as you paint them.
Nor are they as ambiguous as you paint them. If you truly sustain the Brethren in their callings as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators then their cousel WILL be binding on you. "Whether by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same". If you don't sustain them, then that's another matter entirely.
ReplyDeleteAnd since you will be excommunicated for engaging in homsexual acts, and since that action is binding both on earth and in heaven, including loss of priesthood, revocation of temple blessings, and loss of Church membership, then the doctrine IS BINDING upon the people isn't it? I think that's clear enough.
@Neal:
ReplyDeleteIt is another matter entirely. On this issue, "The Brethren" have been wrong time and again.
And as for "truly sustaining the Brethren in their callings as prophets seers and revelators" making all their counsel binding on me or anyone else, remember what Brigham Young said: "I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. . . Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord."
And from the official Church publication Millenial Star: "none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God... would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves."
We have individual responsibilities to find out for ourselves, Neal, whether what they're saying is right or not. And George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency said this:
"Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone."
I agree on this point - we do need to recieve our own testimony of the truth of their words. But because we are asked to pray and recieve our own testimony does not mean ALL their words are unsustainable or uninspired or suspect. It means we have a duty to obtain a testimony so we can sustain them fully, just as we recieve testimony of other doctrine. And where the Twelve and First Presidency are concerned, I would say that is especially so.
ReplyDeleteSo getting back to the subject and a question I asked earlier:
Please show me a SINGLE scripture, general conference talk, Ensign article, quote form the General Handbook of Instructions, quote form a published work - ANY quote made by a prohpet or apostle in ANY dispensation that says gay sex is not a sin, or that approves gay marriage. Please show me, because I can't find a single one. Not one! Every utterance from these sources says it is indeed a sin and that gay marriage is not ordained of God. Every one! Across all the decades and centuries we have writings for, homosexual acts have been condemned as sin. Can you say that ALL those messages from ALL those Prophets and Apostles are "uninspired"? If you believe they are prophets and apostles, then doesn't the fact that all of them have consistantly had the same commentary on this issue tell you what the mind and will of the Lord is concerning this matter? Doesn't the fact that you'll be excommunicated for having gay sex tell you what the mind and will of the Lord is on this matter?
So show me evidence that I'm wrong here. All I'm hearing are arguments that "scriptures may be misinterpreted" or that "Brethren may not be inspired", but I'm not seeing any evidence that the Lord approves of gay sex or gay marriage. These other arguments are side roads. If you don't believe the Church is true or that the Brethren are inspired then you have other issues entirely. Show me the evidence that gay sex and gay marriage are approved of the Lord.
@Neal:
ReplyDeleteYou have stepped into a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If there is no evidence for gay marriage being approved by the Lord (as you claim), that is not evidence that He does _not_ approve of it. And if you will take the time to research the scholarship that has been done on those six Biblical verses which constitute the entire corpus of "all the decades and centuries we have writings for," you will see that your interpretation of them is indeed tenuous at best, and there is indeed room to conclude that "all those messages from all those prophets and apostles" are either personal opinion or else simply reliance on others' personal opinions.
Turning, then, to the alleged evidence that God does not approve. The one person who speaks authoritatively for the Church is its president. And the last one to speak about this subject specifically was Pres. Hinckley, who said he knew nothing about homosexuality and did not pretend to. That is hardly a ringing endorsement for your view that God has clearly and affirmatively spoken on this topic.
The 9th Article of Faith affirms that what we know of the gospel is incomplete, and we expect to learn more and for things to change. The Church's own history is evidence that this is true. Polygamy used to be preached as essential to get into the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, and now it will get you ex'd. Earlier authorities preached that heterosexual monogamy was pernicious and wrong and evil and was the cause of Rome's downfall, while their successors in Church leadership now defend that very same "pernicious" heterosexual monogamy as the one model of marriage approved by God. How can you then say that today's prophets and apostles may not be wrong on this topic? They are the ones who decide what is an excommunicable offense, and the standard on this issue has shifted drastically. A generation ago you could be ex'd just for coming out; a friend of mine had this happen to him. But if my friend had come out today, he'd be allowed to work in the temple as long as he didn't "act on it." How do you explain that contradiction if one set of the prophets and apostles who make the rules for excommunication are or were not wrong? Is coming out by itself worthy of excommunication or not?
Dallin Oaks has said "There are exceptions to some rules. For example, we believe the commandment is not violated by killing pursuant to a lawful order in an armed conflict. But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord."
You have overreached in your conclusions. The best that can be said on this topic is that we do not have clear and unambiguous instruction from the Lord on it. Therefore, in such circumstances, people are entitled to seek their own inspiration, as Dallin Oaks said.
If some have done exactly that, and believe in all good faith and reliance on the Lord that He approves of their same-sex marriages, how can you blithely dismiss their inspiration as wrong, given all of the above circumstances? Doing so denies the efficacy of the very principle of personal revelation I suspect you claim to believe in. Unless you say it's valid only when it confirms what The Brethren teach. But when what The Brethren teach fluctuates over time and is inconsistent, as it's been with this issue, what then?
Well, I tried posting a reponse but I keep getting Blogger errors..
ReplyDeleteI'm out of time on this post because of a project for work that's going to consume me for the next four days, so I just have a couple of quick comments:
ReplyDeleteYour assertions about the interpretation of the 6 scriptures dealing with homosexuality is not at all a forgone conculsion. There are MANY biblical scholars who would soundly disagree with you. See FARMS for detailed rebuttal.
President Hinckley said:
"As I said from this pulpit one year ago, our hearts reach out to those who refer to themselves as gays and lesbians. We love and honor them as sons and daughters of God. They are welcome in the Church. It is expected, however, that they follow the same God-given rules of conduct that apply to everyone else, whether single or married."
He also said:
"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are."
I think this is clear and unambiguous:
In their 14 November 1991 letter concerning the importance of the law of chastity, the First Presidency declared: “Sexual relations are proper only between husband and wife appropriately expressed within the bonds of marriage. Any other sexual contact, including fornication, adultery, and HOMOSEXUAL and LESBIAN behavior, is sinful.”
>>> "... how can you blithely dismiss their inspiration as wrong, given all of the above circumstances..."
If you belive that the inspriation and revelation of the Prohpets and Apostles are "flawed" or "wrong" then any personal reveleation has to be equally suspect.
>>> "Unless you say it's valid only when it confirms what The Brethren teach. But when what The Brethren teach fluctuates over time and is inconsistent, as it's been with this issue, what then?"
I think if the personal revelation you recieve is not in harmony with the basic doctrines of the Church you need to reexamine what you're feeling. Is God double-minded? How the Church addresses specific situations i.e. Church Discipline is a matter of policy, not doctrine. The doctrine has not changed - specifically the Law of Chastity. Reference the definitive statement above signed by the First Presidency.
To me you have failed to show any evidence that homosexual conduct is NOT a sin. You offer anecdotal or wildly interpretive arguments only. There are many articles, scriptures, talks, statemements, handbook of instructions, etc. that clearly state homosexual or lesbian sex IS A SIN. I've posted a few here today. Go to lds.org and search for "homosexuality".
We could go round and round on this for days (actually, we already have!) I think the answer is pretty clear cut. As with everything, we have to choose which voices to follow and what to believe. We also have to live with the consequences of those choices. Choose well.
Andy, I'm sorry if this thread got hijacked! I've tried to answer your original question as honeslty and earnestly as I could. There are those of us out there that have a deep and abiding testimony of the Gospel, who love and honor the Brethren as Apostles and Prophets, and who keep the commandments. This MoHo has been around for over 50 years and I'm still keeping the faith. It can be done! Feel free to email me any time.
Can't seem to post my whole response. Here's the final bit:
ReplyDeleteWe could go round and round on this for days (actually, we already have!) I think the answer is pretty clear cut.
As with everything, we have to choose which voices to follow and what to believe. We also have to live with the consequences of those choices. Choose well.
Andy, I've tried to answer your original question as honeslty and earnestly as I could. There are those of us out there that have a deep and abiding testimony of the Gospel, who love and honor the Brethren as Apostles and Prophets, and who keep the commandments. This MoHo has been around for over 50 years and I'm still keeping the faith. It can be done! Feel free to email me any time.
@Neal or anyone else...
ReplyDeleteWhat I'd like to see is the revelation regarding homosexuality. A specific revelation. Because from everything I've read and heard within the Church, we haven't received it yet. Boyd K Packer stated that when we had a full understanding of homosexuality, we would be able to "correct" the condition routinely. Since then, other apostles have stated that we don't understand homosexuality.
Often, when the church needs to make statements regarding homosexuality, it comes from public relations NOT from the Prophet. If the Lord had something to say on the matter wouldn't it come from Pres Monson, not from Otterson?
Until there is a revelation, I will continue to assume that the Brethren are simply speaking their opinions. As long as they continue to contradict each other, I will have to conclude that they are mingling their philosophies with scripture. And when their spoken words from general conference are edited prior to being published, I am forced to decide that their biases have interfered with doctrine.
So, I await the revelation.