-Boyd K. Packer
Oh, boy. I really stirred the pot, didn't I? I didn't intend for this to make such an impact as it did. However, I do not reclaim any of the words that I have already written, nor do I ever plan to. I will stand my ground.
I would like this post to be a sort of rebuttal and explanation to the majority of comments left on my blog.
To begin, I would like to respond to someone who said, "Mixed-orientation marriages are tougher to pull off than you imagine, and they inflict incalculable harm on the straight spouse."
- "Normal" orientation marriages are just as hard, if not harder to pull off. In a mixed orientation marriage, I believe the honesty and trust would be so much more than in a normal marriage. The man and the wife will have to rely on each other to get them through the tough times. While it may be hard for the straight spouse, it's just as hard for the gay spouse.
To continue, I put forth my best effort to rebuttal the next comment. "I think I can plainly state that any marriage where sex is a chore, uncomfortable, and forced will fail. Don't think God made you the exception. Remember, even if you aren't temple worthy, you can be led by the Spirit."
- First off, I always want to be temple worthy; each and every single day. I do not want to be 75% worthy. Or even 99.9% worthy. 100% is the only thing that I can expect and accept from myself. Secondly, while I understand that having sex in a MOM may be more difficult than in a NOM (normal orientation marriage), sex can still be a chore for either partner. How many times does a woman in a NOM have to succumb to the desires of her husband? Or vice versa? Sex is not the main component of a relationship. Love, tenderness, care, honestly, and eternal values are.
"You have no idea of the difficulty and potential pain you would be signing up for. It is your life and your choice, of course. But please don't go there just because your teachers in Church have given you the impression that's what you have to do in order to be good enough."
- You are correct. I do not know exactly what I could potentially be signing up for. All I know is that I want to do it. I did not decide to do this because my teachers in Church have told me to, or given me the impressions that this is what I must do to be good enough. I received this impression from the Spirit. The Spirit did not tell me, "Andy, in order to be good enough, you must get a wife." No. But, if I want a family, if I want a temple marriage, if I want children, I will have to be married to a woman; there is no other option in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"I'm sorry you had bad experiences being in the "gay world", but I hope that you also realize that you could've had similar experiences in the straight one as well."
- I do not necessarily think my experiences were bad ones. Yes, they may have been the wrong choices, but they are not bad. I learned a lot from them. More than I could have simply by standing on the sidelines and watching. Drinking was an interesting experience, and trying to date was, too. But, I've seen enough from my own experiences and from the experiences of others, that this is not a life that I want to live. I do understand that I could have had these experiences in the straight world as well. So therefore, I must start to hang out with only good, upstanding people who share similar beliefs and morals.
Many of you may think I am making the wrong decision. That is your own opinion, and I am okay with that. I do not hate any of you, nor do I think less of you. Like in my previous post, I said that I will never turn my back on the gay community. There are too many upstanding, smart, beautiful, and talented individuals who are doing the very best that they can. If any one of you gets married to a guy; I want to be there. If any of you have good experiences; I want to know about them. Just because I am choosing a different life path, the one I feel and know to be right for me, doesn't change who I am.
In my last post, I tried (perhaps unsuccessfully) to describe the main driving force behind this decision. I will try again.
Jesus Christ has been a guiding influence in my life. When I started to factor His relationship out of my life and the relationship I had with His Church, things began to slowly feel like they were slipping away from me. I felt like I had no control, nor direction in life. I felt like I had no purpose or plan. I needed extra help.
When I finally came to realize that I was feeling this way because of the choices that I was making, I knew that I had to make a change. I knew that I had to rely on the Savior and understand that my life was going to take a drastic turn for the better. I comprehend that this choice, the choice of staying close to the Lord, His Gospel and His Church will be hard. It will be one of the hardest decisions of my life. However, I know that it will be one of the best decisions I can make in this life.
I do not want to stir the pot anymore. I despise confrontation or negative feelings. For the most part, I am a very happy person, and I want everyone else to be happy.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not forcing me to marry a woman. God isn't either; nor is His Son. I want this.
Why? Because I know it's the right decision.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteIt may well be the right decision, but please make it a mutual and truly open decision. Whoever she may be, she has the right to know all. I tell you this because it was the crowning mistake of my own life so far. I failed to make that decision a truly open decision. I wanted something so bad (eternal marriage with a woman, and children and a family) that I deceived the woman I loved. I'm not saying this is your intention, but I am saying the fiddler must be paid. I would also tell you that though sex isn't the main component of a marriage, it (lack or problems with it) is a quick way to destroy the rest of a marriage, and create frustrations for which there are no solutions. Forgive us if we want you to avoid all the problems we've created and encountered due to our own MOM's.
I'm happy that you have Jesus, God, and the Spirit in your life, though I wonder whether you're implying that those who would not make the same decision do not have Jesus, God, and the Spirit in theirs. That would be a reason for concern, if true.
ReplyDeleteSex is not the main component of a relationship. Love, tenderness, care, honestly, and eternal values are.
ReplyDeleteBefore I entered my own disastrous mixed-orientation marriage I thought exactly the same way. I had been taught in Church that any two people, as long as they followed the gospel, could make a marriage work. In other words, righteous virtues-- unselfishness, honesty, following the commandments-- these were what made a marriage strong. Contention and marital unhappiness were the result of sin. I knew my heart's desire for a righteous life; I thought my marriage would be sanctified by that.
This was one of the worst and most damaging pieces of self-deception that I ever bought into.
I'll go away now. I wish you the best on your journey.
Andy, I know that the decision you have made will lead you down a hard road. Everyone is given catered trials in life that will help them blossom into what God wants them to be. And everyone has a hard road to travel...especially when traveling toward eternal salvation. I'm not saying that every decision is black and white, but you've been blessed with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ in your life and with that comes responsibility. Either decision you could have made or will make in the future is going to lead you down a potentially hard road. Adversity just comes with the territory. There has to be a lot of pressure before you get a diamond. I'm proud of you for looking at yourself and deciding to do what's best for you. I support you 100% and will always be here for you when you need me. I know that this was tough for you, but I also sense the peace that it is bringing you. Know that I love and care for you deeply.
ReplyDeleteFrom a woman who unknowingly married a gay man, please, please, please be 100% up front and honest with the woman you decide to marry. It still will be a difficult road, you have no idea. But at least she will also have signed up for the same thing knowing the whole truth.
ReplyDeleteBased on Joe Conflict's and Rob's experiences, be wary. Through all of my experiences with leadership, the Honor Code Office was quite forceful to try to get me to marry a woman, while my old bishop almost $hit a brick when I told him that. He said that you should NEVER get married to someone who you aren't physically attracted to (since it's hard enough when you are), and told me to not listen to those who said otherwise. And I agree. I have several friends who are in MOMs, and while I wouldn't ever do it myself, I can understand their motivations. Just be honest and forthcoming with whom you date, and then go from there.
ReplyDeleteAndy, would you marry a lesbian woman if you knew she would always desire someone else and her heart could never be completely yours? Your alternative is to deceive the woman you marry and hope she never finds out that you've put her in that same position.
ReplyDelete... if I want a family, if I want a temple marriage, if I want children, I will have to be married to a woman; there is no other option in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDelete...
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not forcing me to marry a woman. ... I want this.
Are you sure?
First of all, the first statement is only partially true. You can have a family and children without marrying a woman. You can't have a temple marriage (yet, at least--I'm not convinced it will never happen), and the family and kids aren't an option without a woman based on the LDS church's current understanding of the gospel...
But taking a broad view, and reading between the lines, I'm pretty sure that you don't want to marry a woman. You just want a "family" and "children", and you want to feel like you fit the mold that the church tells you (or, to be fair, that you feel the Spirit has confirmed to you) is the right one.
And so you're willing to suck it up and do something you don't really want to do--marry a woman--so that you can have those things you want.
Doesn't that make the woman more or less the equivalent to the meal skipped on fast Sunday, or the ten percent put in the tithing envelope, or the end-of-the-month visit to your home teaching families so that you can report your 100%? Doesn't that make her a sacrifice? A means to an end?
Do you really want a relationship like that? Does she?
All of your statements about marriage ("'Normal' orientation marriages are just as hard, if not harder to pull off.", "Sex is not the main component of a relationship.") sound incredibly naive to someone who's been there. That's why you're getting comments from MoHoHawaii and JoeConflict and Rob suggesting that you re-think your goals.
"...the honesty and trust would be so much more [in a MOM] than in a normal marriage"? ... Why on earth would that be the case? Any couple needs to learn to trust and to be honest and to communicate, and no particular couple gets a "free pass" here. It takes effort and work in any case, and it's not going to be any easier for a MOM than it is for any other couple.
"The man and the wife will have to rely on each other to get them through the tough times." ... Just like any other couple?
The thing is, a MOM is just like any other couple. A MOM couple is going to face all of the same issues and conflicts related to finances and child raising and health issues and in-laws and whatever other challenges a marriage faces.
And then on top of that, there's the fact that the husband isn't attracted to the wife, and would rather have a guy, and doesn't enjoy sex all that much (if at all). And the fact that the wife doesn't feel wanted or appreciated, and doesn't feel attractive. No matter how fervently she believes that her husband loves her, there's always going to be the nagging concern that he'll one day decide to up and leave her for a man. And no matter how fervently the husband does love his wife, there's always going to be the nagging thought that he'd be happier if he did so.
(cont...)
"Sex is not the main component of a relationship". That's true. The physical act of sex does not a relationship make. But sexual attraction is about so much more than sex. And even sex itself, in a real loving relationship, is about a lot more than the physical act. It's about a spiritual binding of souls, and an emotional connection. I've felt that with Sarah--but only a handful of times in the fifteen and a half years we've been together.
ReplyDeleteSex is not the main component of a relationship, but I fervently believe that you cannot build a happy and lasting partnership without a sexual connection. Boyd K. Packer agrees with me. In a fireside at BYU way back in 1963 he said that "romantic love is not only a part of life, but literally a dominating influence of it. It is deeply and significantly religious. There is no abundant life without it. Indeed, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom is unattainable in the absence of it." (emphasis mine)
Obviously Elder Packer spoke from his own experience and would only have considered heterosexual relationships in his praise of romantic love. But what of those of us for whom heterosexual romantic love is impossible (or at the very least so unlikely and difficult as to be virtually so)? Where is our "abundant life"? It's not in a half-relationship that robs both man and woman of the "deeply and significantly religious" fulfillment that we all yearn for.
I've spoken in person with many dozens (probably over two hundred) of gay guys who have married women. Of those, I know of only a few who are still married, and the ones who could be said to be happily married to any extent could be counted without taking my shoes off. And even those have regular struggles and issues above and beyond what any "normal" married couple faces.
Andy, I hope that you can be happy. If you can find that happiness as an active member of the church I'll be thrilled. I hope that you can remain close to God and devoted to Christ and full of the Spirit. And as reticent as I am to claim any right to tell someone what path is or isn't for them, I also hope that you never marry a woman.
(I apologize if I've come on too strong here. This is an especially sensitive subject for me right now. I'm not stupid enough to believe that every situation will end up like mine. But I am smart enough to recognize that at least some pain is virtually guaranteed in a MOM, and if I can do anything to help someone avoid that...)
ReplyDeleteI just want to say a word for Andy's honesty with a potential spouse.
ReplyDeleteOnce upon a time I was very much interested in Andy. We had fun together. We were best friends. I started to make it completely obvious what I felt for Andy. He didn't make any moves on me but just continued to stay just a great friend. One night while hanging out he told me with 100% honestly how he felt about me. He cared about me too and he loved spending time with me but he was also gay.
Andy would never ever trick a woman into marrying him or even dating him. I chose to date him for awhile knowing full well about his attractions. We ended up deciding not to carry on our relationship but at no point did Andy every pretend to care more for me than he did.
He is a great man and I love him very very much. If he ends up marrying a woman someday she will know everything about him before he carries on with a relationship.
@ LDS Brother- I'm pretty confident that Andy isn't saying that you don't have the Spirit or the Lord with you. Everyone receives revelation for themselves for their own life. This is Andy's revelation and if you have had something else revealed to you, it is every bit as valid as Andy's answer. Carry on with what you know is right!
So Andy, all the MOMs tell you it's a bad idea, the leadership of the Church tell you it's a bad idea, those of us in gay relationships tell you it's a bad idea. You say it's a good idea for you. I guess you're the exception. Maybe you can achieve what no one else can.
ReplyDeleteAsk your parents and your bishop, "Hey this is an awkward topic, but how important is sex and romantic attraction in your marriage? Could you have made it this far without it?" You don't need to tell them what you're considering, just be frank.
Open up the Institute study guide for Preparation for Marriage and Family. It says that sex is a critical piece of marriage. It is the most powerful way that you affirm one another.
The Church says that a MOM is a bad idea. If you think that it's right to be disobedient in this aspect, then why do you think you need to be obedient in everything else the Church says?
Tossing a dog and a cat together in a kennel even if one is male and one is female is not going to make them happy.
I have been frank. I don't apologize however. Only a person in a MOM can really understand this situation. To ignore their counsel is ignorant. I will have been with my partner five year soon. I *know* how important romantic love is for our relationship (and any other). To pursue such a loveless marriage is folly.
Andy, even if you fully disclose to the woman that you're gay, she still won't understand it. She'll still be naive. She'll believe (like you) that she's different, that the Spirit will fix the relationship. But months, years, or decades later, you'll both find out how much time you've wasted. Life is way too short to give up that many years for a marriage that is doomed from the start.
Don't let all this counsel just set you in your ways more. The Spirit wants you to make an informed decision. Perhaps your first decision needs more time. You've had some of the experts in the "field" give you sound advice. Why would God tell you to ignore it?
Andy, in my experience, not many bloggers support MOMs in general. Many have had terrible experiences and speak honestly from that experience. But I know some married SSA/gay men (and a few such women) who wouldn't trade their lives with their spouses and families for anything, and their spouses say the same, including a couple whom I know have been married previously to hetero spouses. No, the statistics for MOMs might not be great, but neither are those for long-term gay relationships, so let's set that aside and understand that a relationship is what you make of it, and understanding that the odds may be against you and that is all the more reason to be sensitive and deliberate in how you approach the possibility. That said, I no longer believe MOMs have the "same" challenges as any other relationship. That is, they do, PLUS the built-in, added layers of the attraction issues around emotional and sexual fulfillment of both spouses which some couples may face in other forms but which is pretty inherent in MOMs. If you're willing to work through those, and she is, and you're genuinely committed to each other and attracted to each other (western culture would say "in love with each other"), you'll need to muster the strength to thank nay-sayers for their concerns and reassure them you're seeking your happiness as you allow them to seek theirs. No matter what you choose, whether same-sex or mixed-sex relationships, someone will tell you you're being naive, blind, selfish, or fooled, and they will sometimes have compelling statistics and personal experience to back up those claims. Talk to people who have been down the path you want to follow, whether successfully or unsuccessfully. Talk to those who have done it the way you would: with complete honesty and open communication before marriage. Understand what it will require. Don't expect it to change your orientation. Know it's more complicated than pop culture or people who make money promising or rejecting change might assert. Just...be wise.
ReplyDelete...Though you didn't exactly ask for advice from us. Aren't you glad we're all so willing to share our opinions? ;-)
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